Theresa, in order for any software to be aware of all these things, the writer would have to input them into the software. I wouldn't be patient enough to do all this, plus write the story. It seems the task would just be made more complicated. Even as hard as detailed rewrites are, I would think they are easier than the detail you would need to feed the software for it to be able to track all these things.
No... seriously,Theresa, my lack of skill negotiating the computer is legendary around my family. Why, I've lost entire chapters that were "in process" because I hit the wrong key with fingers not designed for small keyboards. Never could figure out how to recover the precious words and am still puzzled about which "key" is the culprit. Something down on the lower right is all I know. This happens more times than I like to think about...
Peter, as with anything, there's a learning curve—but a tool's great value is its ultimately making the whole task easier. Does a word processor free up more time for the actual job of writing than a typewriter? Was a typewriter more efficient in this regard than writing by hand?
I vote yes.
But I'm also aware that a highly functional software system which you can easily use will be a formidable task! 8) Hee! Hee!
Thanks for visiting. I understand that an editor could be extremely useful for revisions, but in my case the story is not yet finished, but I still have to rip it apart. The same problem, but encountered earlier, though less clear for the editor, because of course he/she can't see the parts of the story not yet extant.
By the way, folks, Rob is mentioned in Peter Rennebohm's post about the trials of getting his fourth novel posted where the value of good developmental editors, including Rob, is discussed.
Well, good luck with that, Theresa. I have a hard time imagining how you could possibly create a program to keep track of all the "stuff" we have to be concerned with in a novel. I keep wondering about the learning curve and how it might impact on time available to write?
Peter, software designed for especially for authors would definitely allow an author to look at Story Eventsi belonging to various criteria which would, by inference, exclude any Story Events which didn't belong—this is sometimes called a "Filter"—which thereby reduces the amount of data (StoryTexti) which an author would need to sift through in order to find what s/he was looking for.
The criteria for filtering the story could easily be what you suggest, resulting in:
story events which belong to only one of several POVi characters
story events which character B witnessed
story events which relate to the health issue of character C (i.e. a Threadi)
story events which relate to the love story in the manuscript
etc.
But, as I say, I'm also trying to figure out an easy way to say "In chapter 8, section 5, what does character B know now about the problem / victim / crime?" so that the author could then wander through the story and check what each important character knows in various stages of the story. I haven't figured that out too smoothly yet.
LJ: Just read (and printed out) your outline features. I typically spew everything out onto paper and hope that enough of it makes sense. I wish I were as organized as you seem to be. I do create character profiles, but the timeline business and the other ways you track details looks very helpful.
Theresa:
If you are suggesting that an author would have the ability to separate out and inventory different story events--that is, knowledge, by POVi character, well, I can't imagine how useful and time saving that would be.
Then, it would also mean that you could separate and categorize what...?interior monologue? It is a challenge to try and remember who said what and when. . .and, who heard what was said.
It's always the hundreds of little details that continue to plague the author and slow everything down. And, of course, if any of these details goes unnoticed or is misplaced, well it's like a meandering string of dominoes--everything falls apart. It would be nice to be able to keep track of all that stuff.
Good software would enable the author to read Story Eventsi by POVi character, i.e. see only the parts of the story in which a given character participates.
At the moment, I'm considering the issues of what a character knows at any given point in the story, and mulling over the best way to record them. If you have ideas, please let me know.
Theresa
P.S. Some description of site behaviour might help this discussion. Earlier I mentioned Story Event. If you look closely at the first sentence of this post, there is a small superscripted "i" beside the word "Story Event" and others that have special meaning on this website. If you place your cursor on the "i", a definition will appear—in this case, what we mean by "Story Event" on this site. In addition, if you click on the little "i", all posts on the site which mention "Story Event" will be displayed.
Hi, LJ:
Thanks for joining in.
I too have to go back and flesh out a manuscript. Being quite compulsive, once I start writing I just keep on going. (That may explain how Buried Lies started out at 137,000 words).
Your comment about "becoming the character," is so very true. As a matter of fact, when I'm creating a particularly nasty bad guy, my wife has to move to the guest room as my sleep is filled with violent thrashing and gnashing. 'Liberating' is one way to describe this experience; 'godlike' is another. I created a character in Blue Springs that was supposed to die at the end, but I loved this guy so much I couldn't pull the trigger. He lived.
Jen: Yes, I have thought about this technique. I'm currently struggling with a story that began as a short in first person. I can't continue on in this POVi as I want to bring in a different protagonist, so the idea of multiple views has some appeal. Having never tried this before, however, I'm concerned about pulling it off. Harlen Coben does this in some of his books, namely, Gone For Good.
I understand the long, slow path to publication, but my problems are different. I write lean stories that never need cutting, in fact, I have to add detail in the second draft. But my first versions are workable plots that editors love, but don't know how to sell. I also write in third person and use multiple POVsi. I love being characters. Very liberating. I may attempt first person someday, but it will have to be a very different kind of story than I write now.
One of my heros - Robert Crais - used multiple POVsi starting in L.A. Requiem. Obviously, that isn't common; it also isn't unheard of. I've heard some authors say they want to remain "true" and therefore won't touch that approach. Have any thoughts on multiple POVs?
You are right about the problems with 1st person. Everything--without exception, must come through the protagonist. And, yes, it is nice to be able to end a chapter or scene, type in a few * * * * * and switch to another POVi while the protag sleeps.
I still think the writer has to be very careful in an omniscient POV not to get too carried away. This view is characterized by a roving camera and microphone held by a variety of characters. Any number beyond three or four becomes very, very difficult to manage and keep track of all that is spoken or thought by those who held the camera.
Hmmm. . . however, if the software was any good, maybe all this could be tracked automatically?
Great to hear from you, Rob. I too enjoyed our experience and have you to thank for the way Buried Lies took on a truly polished and professional look. As soon as novel #5 is ready for your close scrutiny, I'll be in touch.
Thomas, your suggestion to check out the Dragon Naturally Speaking may prove to be exactly what I need. I went to the web link and the product looks not only affordable, but manageable for a non-techie such as I. If I could speak into some sort of electronic gizmo that would recognize my voice and immediately transcribe the speech into text. . .well, Good Lord, how neat would that be?
Everything you mention would probably have been helpful in my case, Theresa. Again, assuming that a computer dummy such as I could mange to understand how to make it all work. I can't emphasize this enough, though: all such software has to be simple and easily understood. Also, keep in mind that the user (me, probably) will only be using each function a few times per year--if that. So, retention and memory of different functions could be problematic.
As a reader, I like first person because it allows more direct identification with the protag and more closely matches the kind of detection which happens in the real world. But, while it simplifies some things, it seems to me that it is a fundamentally more difficult form, both in terms of keeping up the tension and of getting the story told. Much easier while the protag is dealing with some boring routine to bop over to action elsewhere. Much easier too to explain everything that happens without the protag having to actually find it all out. And, I do hate it when the bad guy suddenly blurts out a full confession at the end of a book and that is where you find out all the important stuff.
Thanks for joining in, Jen. A couple of things come to mind about your post. First of all, friends and family can be valuable allies in the entire process. I use a small group of friends along with my wife for a "first impression" about a given manuscript. Do you like it? How much? Is it as good as the last? What's wrong with it? How about the characters? Likeable? Memeorable? And on and on. I'm not looking for structural corrections at this point. Punctuation and grammatical issues can be dealt with later. In short, I want to hear about their likes and dislikes with this first draft. It helps convince me that I'm on to something worthwhile. After the manuscript reaches a point of no return: I.e., I've made it the best I possibly can, only then, would I submit it to a pro for editing and critique. I know it sounds as if I'm shilling for Rob Walker and other pros like Rob, but the final product really must be almost perfect for a publisher to pay any attention to it.
Regarding the POVi question. I set out in Buried Lies intentionally to write in 1st person. Why? To challenge myself, I think. I also wanted to create a very strong female character in that story--something lacking in my previous books. Would I write in 1st person again? My answer to that would have been a resounding, "No!" a year ago. Now, I'm considering using that POV again. 1st person has its advantages: It's simpler with far less to keep track of. Third person allows for much more freedom and flexibility, but can also become quite complicated and cumbersome. I wonder if Theresa's new software might simplify that whole deal? Another wishful thought...
Good developmental editors are hard to find, but for a source of "truly seeing" the chaff for the wheat in your novel a good one is hard to beat. My own faith in it comes from having done it for over 30 years--getting a clear pair of eyes on the forest so the author can see the trees. More about my own editing service under Knife Services is at my website - www.robertwalkerbooks.com
Way back in 2002 when I finished the first draft of French Creek, I sent it to a professional editor for her critique. Alice Peppler was, and is, a terrific editor I used for many years. Her initial critique did hurt, but I also recall she prefaced her comments with this: "You have the core of a very good thriller." Alice may be found here.
When I finally got over the hurt from her critique--many months later, I went back and reworked the manuscript as she suggested--all the while keeping her few words of encouragement in mind. Authors must develop very thick skins...if we do not, we won't continue to write. I now understand how important good, professional advice is to my writing process and gladly pay folks like Alice and Rob for their comments and guidance.
Here's an example of paying for bad advice. the agent I contracted with for Buried Lies suggested I hire an editor they knew. I did that very thing and regret that decision to this day. A nice lady who had worked with the agent in his previous business of publishing business magazines, but she had never worked on a novel before, and had little experience or expertise with my genre. It was a big mistake. Coupled with the agent's lack of experience, the lengthly (123,000 word) manuscript was accepted and sent out to publishers.
Months went by as rejection letters trickled in. It was at this point that Theresa read the manuscript and suggested it really wasn't ready for publication. Once again, like much of the knowledge I've acquired in this business, I paid dearly for the lesson.
So, to a new writer I would say: Borrow the money if necessary and hire a good, reputable editor with experience in his/her genre.
Thanks for the tip. I'll check that out. As I thought more about a "software wish list," I wondered about creating a gimmick such as a 'snooze alarm': When the story drags and the reader nods off, an alarm should sound warning the author to jump-start the tension level. Of course, this might put critiquing editors like Rob Walker out of business and I wouldn't want to do that...
Melinda, thanks for posting. I created a page for you on this website under Issues/ExistingSoftware with the name Power Writer.
The reason that we need you to tell us about the software you use is that we don't know: what parts of the manufacturer's marketing material are software hyperbole, what in the software works for you, and what doesn't work for you. We're not looking for a list of features, we're looking for you to tell us what writers' issues specifically your software package solves for you.
Like many people, I will invest the time to research a product I want to buy after I have received enough recommendations about specific features/issues which make me feel it is worth my time to investigate. This is not to suggest the product isn't worthwhile—I'm a normal consumer—I listen first to the end-users.
Thanks for coming to visit—and we really appreciate your coming back. Hope you'll visit again.
Great blog post, Peter! Not being a writer myself, I can only sit and ponder the frustration you must have dealt with. I recently looked at a manuscript for a friend. I felt like I was slow as molasses going through it, and would have liked to have done a second run-through for him, but wanted to get it back to him in this decade. He has assured me the comments were helpful and he's come back with some additional quesitons. I've ADORED being part of his writing process, but I can't even begin to fathom his (or your) end of the deal!
Anyway, I did want to ask you about choosing to write in a different point of view. How did you like that? Did it seem to come natural or did you find yourself reverting back without thinking? What kind of differences did you notice as you wrote - good or bad?
Theresa, in order for any software to be aware of all these things, the writer would have to input them into the software. I wouldn't be patient enough to do all this, plus write the story. It seems the task would just be made more complicated. Even as hard as detailed rewrites are, I would think they are easier than the detail you would need to feed the software for it to be able to track all these things.
No... seriously,Theresa, my lack of skill negotiating the computer is legendary around my family. Why, I've lost entire chapters that were "in process" because I hit the wrong key with fingers not designed for small keyboards. Never could figure out how to recover the precious words and am still puzzled about which "key" is the culprit. Something down on the lower right is all I know. This happens more times than I like to think about...
Peter, as with anything, there's a learning curve—but a tool's great value is its ultimately making the whole task easier. Does a word processor free up more time for the actual job of writing than a typewriter? Was a typewriter more efficient in this regard than writing by hand?
I vote yes.
But I'm also aware that a highly functional software system which you can easily use will be a formidable task! 8) Hee! Hee!
Theresa
Rob,
Thanks for visiting. I understand that an editor could be extremely useful for revisions, but in my case the story is not yet finished, but I still have to rip it apart. The same problem, but encountered earlier, though less clear for the editor, because of course he/she can't see the parts of the story not yet extant.
By the way, folks, Rob is mentioned in Peter Rennebohm's post about the trials of getting his fourth novel posted where the value of good developmental editors, including Rob, is discussed.
Regards,
Theresa
Well, good luck with that, Theresa. I have a hard time imagining how you could possibly create a program to keep track of all the "stuff" we have to be concerned with in a novel. I keep wondering about the learning curve and how it might impact on time available to write?
Peter, software designed for especially for authors would definitely allow an author to look at Story Eventsi belonging to various criteria which would, by inference, exclude any Story Events which didn't belong—this is sometimes called a "Filter"—which thereby reduces the amount of data (StoryTexti) which an author would need to sift through in order to find what s/he was looking for.
The criteria for filtering the story could easily be what you suggest, resulting in:
But, as I say, I'm also trying to figure out an easy way to say "In chapter 8, section 5, what does character B know now about the problem / victim / crime?" so that the author could then wander through the story and check what each important character knows in various stages of the story. I haven't figured that out too smoothly yet.
LJ: Just read (and printed out) your outline features. I typically spew everything out onto paper and hope that enough of it makes sense. I wish I were as organized as you seem to be. I do create character profiles, but the timeline business and the other ways you track details looks very helpful.
Theresa:
If you are suggesting that an author would have the ability to separate out and inventory different story events--that is, knowledge, by POVi character, well, I can't imagine how useful and time saving that would be.
Then, it would also mean that you could separate and categorize what...?interior monologue? It is a challenge to try and remember who said what and when. . .and, who heard what was said.
It's always the hundreds of little details that continue to plague the author and slow everything down. And, of course, if any of these details goes unnoticed or is misplaced, well it's like a meandering string of dominoes--everything falls apart. It would be nice to be able to keep track of all that stuff.
Peter,
Good software would enable the author to read Story Eventsi by POVi character, i.e. see only the parts of the story in which a given character participates.
At the moment, I'm considering the issues of what a character knows at any given point in the story, and mulling over the best way to record them. If you have ideas, please let me know.
Theresa
P.S. Some description of site behaviour might help this discussion. Earlier I mentioned Story Event. If you look closely at the first sentence of this post, there is a small superscripted "i" beside the word "Story Event" and others that have special meaning on this website. If you place your cursor on the "i", a definition will appear—in this case, what we mean by "Story Event" on this site. In addition, if you click on the little "i", all posts on the site which mention "Story Event" will be displayed.
Hi, LJ:
Thanks for joining in.
I too have to go back and flesh out a manuscript. Being quite compulsive, once I start writing I just keep on going. (That may explain how Buried Lies started out at 137,000 words).
Your comment about "becoming the character," is so very true. As a matter of fact, when I'm creating a particularly nasty bad guy, my wife has to move to the guest room as my sleep is filled with violent thrashing and gnashing. 'Liberating' is one way to describe this experience; 'godlike' is another. I created a character in Blue Springs that was supposed to die at the end, but I loved this guy so much I couldn't pull the trigger. He lived.
Jen: Yes, I have thought about this technique. I'm currently struggling with a story that began as a short in first person. I can't continue on in this POVi as I want to bring in a different protagonist, so the idea of multiple views has some appeal. Having never tried this before, however, I'm concerned about pulling it off. Harlen Coben does this in some of his books, namely, Gone For Good.
I understand the long, slow path to publication, but my problems are different. I write lean stories that never need cutting, in fact, I have to add detail in the second draft. But my first versions are workable plots that editors love, but don't know how to sell. I also write in third person and use multiple POVsi. I love being characters. Very liberating. I may attempt first person someday, but it will have to be a very different kind of story than I write now.
Peter,
One of my heros - Robert Crais - used multiple POVsi starting in L.A. Requiem. Obviously, that isn't common; it also isn't unheard of. I've heard some authors say they want to remain "true" and therefore won't touch that approach. Have any thoughts on multiple POVs?
OK Peter, I get that message loud and clear! :)
Theresa
You are right about the problems with 1st person. Everything--without exception, must come through the protagonist. And, yes, it is nice to be able to end a chapter or scene, type in a few * * * * * and switch to another POVi while the protag sleeps.
I still think the writer has to be very careful in an omniscient POV not to get too carried away. This view is characterized by a roving camera and microphone held by a variety of characters. Any number beyond three or four becomes very, very difficult to manage and keep track of all that is spoken or thought by those who held the camera.
Hmmm. . . however, if the software was any good, maybe all this could be tracked automatically?
Theresa?
Great to hear from you, Rob. I too enjoyed our experience and have you to thank for the way Buried Lies took on a truly polished and professional look. As soon as novel #5 is ready for your close scrutiny, I'll be in touch.
All the best to you, Rob.
Peter
Thomas, your suggestion to check out the Dragon Naturally Speaking may prove to be exactly what I need. I went to the web link and the product looks not only affordable, but manageable for a non-techie such as I. If I could speak into some sort of electronic gizmo that would recognize my voice and immediately transcribe the speech into text. . .well, Good Lord, how neat would that be?
Thank you!
Everything you mention would probably have been helpful in my case, Theresa. Again, assuming that a computer dummy such as I could mange to understand how to make it all work. I can't emphasize this enough, though: all such software has to be simple and easily understood. Also, keep in mind that the user (me, probably) will only be using each function a few times per year--if that. So, retention and memory of different functions could be problematic.
As a reader, I like first person because it allows more direct identification with the protag and more closely matches the kind of detection which happens in the real world. But, while it simplifies some things, it seems to me that it is a fundamentally more difficult form, both in terms of keeping up the tension and of getting the story told. Much easier while the protag is dealing with some boring routine to bop over to action elsewhere. Much easier too to explain everything that happens without the protag having to actually find it all out. And, I do hate it when the bad guy suddenly blurts out a full confession at the end of a book and that is where you find out all the important stuff.
Thanks for joining in, Jen. A couple of things come to mind about your post. First of all, friends and family can be valuable allies in the entire process. I use a small group of friends along with my wife for a "first impression" about a given manuscript. Do you like it? How much? Is it as good as the last? What's wrong with it? How about the characters? Likeable? Memeorable? And on and on. I'm not looking for structural corrections at this point. Punctuation and grammatical issues can be dealt with later. In short, I want to hear about their likes and dislikes with this first draft. It helps convince me that I'm on to something worthwhile. After the manuscript reaches a point of no return: I.e., I've made it the best I possibly can, only then, would I submit it to a pro for editing and critique. I know it sounds as if I'm shilling for Rob Walker and other pros like Rob, but the final product really must be almost perfect for a publisher to pay any attention to it.
Regarding the POVi question. I set out in Buried Lies intentionally to write in 1st person. Why? To challenge myself, I think. I also wanted to create a very strong female character in that story--something lacking in my previous books. Would I write in 1st person again? My answer to that would have been a resounding, "No!" a year ago. Now, I'm considering using that POV again. 1st person has its advantages: It's simpler with far less to keep track of. Third person allows for much more freedom and flexibility, but can also become quite complicated and cumbersome. I wonder if Theresa's new software might simplify that whole deal? Another wishful thought...
Good developmental editors are hard to find, but for a source of "truly seeing" the chaff for the wheat in your novel a good one is hard to beat. My own faith in it comes from having done it for over 30 years--getting a clear pair of eyes on the forest so the author can see the trees. More about my own editing service under Knife Services is at my website - www.robertwalkerbooks.com
Rob Walker
Way back in 2002 when I finished the first draft of French Creek, I sent it to a professional editor for her critique. Alice Peppler was, and is, a terrific editor I used for many years. Her initial critique did hurt, but I also recall she prefaced her comments with this: "You have the core of a very good thriller." Alice may be found here.
When I finally got over the hurt from her critique--many months later, I went back and reworked the manuscript as she suggested--all the while keeping her few words of encouragement in mind. Authors must develop very thick skins...if we do not, we won't continue to write. I now understand how important good, professional advice is to my writing process and gladly pay folks like Alice and Rob for their comments and guidance.
Here's an example of paying for bad advice. the agent I contracted with for Buried Lies suggested I hire an editor they knew. I did that very thing and regret that decision to this day. A nice lady who had worked with the agent in his previous business of publishing business magazines, but she had never worked on a novel before, and had little experience or expertise with my genre. It was a big mistake. Coupled with the agent's lack of experience, the lengthly (123,000 word) manuscript was accepted and sent out to publishers.
Months went by as rejection letters trickled in. It was at this point that Theresa read the manuscript and suggested it really wasn't ready for publication. Once again, like much of the knowledge I've acquired in this business, I paid dearly for the lesson.
So, to a new writer I would say: Borrow the money if necessary and hire a good, reputable editor with experience in his/her genre.
Thanks for the tip. I'll check that out. As I thought more about a "software wish list," I wondered about creating a gimmick such as a 'snooze alarm': When the story drags and the reader nods off, an alarm should sound warning the author to jump-start the tension level. Of course, this might put critiquing editors like Rob Walker out of business and I wouldn't want to do that...
Melinda, thanks for posting. I created a page for you on this website under Issues/ExistingSoftware with the name Power Writer.
The reason that we need you to tell us about the software you use is that we don't know: what parts of the manufacturer's marketing material are software hyperbole, what in the software works for you, and what doesn't work for you. We're not looking for a list of features, we're looking for you to tell us what writers' issues specifically your software package solves for you.
Like many people, I will invest the time to research a product I want to buy after I have received enough recommendations about specific features/issues which make me feel it is worth my time to investigate. This is not to suggest the product isn't worthwhile—I'm a normal consumer—I listen first to the end-users.
Thanks for coming to visit—and we really appreciate your coming back. Hope you'll visit again.
Best,
Theresa
Great blog post, Peter! Not being a writer myself, I can only sit and ponder the frustration you must have dealt with. I recently looked at a manuscript for a friend. I felt like I was slow as molasses going through it, and would have liked to have done a second run-through for him, but wanted to get it back to him in this decade. He has assured me the comments were helpful and he's come back with some additional quesitons. I've ADORED being part of his writing process, but I can't even begin to fathom his (or your) end of the deal!
Anyway, I did want to ask you about choosing to write in a different point of view. How did you like that? Did it seem to come natural or did you find yourself reverting back without thinking? What kind of differences did you notice as you wrote - good or bad?
Congratulations on the success!!
Jen